Can Condoms Kill?
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- Reviews
- Citation
- Cataloging
- Transcript
It's been called mankind's biggest health disaster: about 40 million people throughout the world are thought to be living with AIDS. For two decades, condoms have been a primary weapon in the fight against AIDS transmission. In 2003 a leading cardinal in the Vatican, Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, insisted that condoms can have holes in them that leak the deadly virus. The major AIDS control agencies say this is not true - that there's no health risk from holes in condoms. The Vatican subsequently published an important document by Trujillo defending and substantiating his position, entitled 'Family Values Versus Safe Sex.' The Vatican's claims caused an outcry.
In CAN CONDOMS KILL?, reporter Steve Bradshaw embarks on a worldwide hunt for the truth, analyzing the 20-page paper prepared by the Vatican - and the references cited in its extensive footnotes - and interviewing leading scientists and AIDS activists who offer their views on the cardinal's controversial claims.
Global efforts to convince people condoms leak were first reported in Panorama's previous film 'Sex and the Holy City'. The film revealed the tactics used by some Catholic conservatives to try to dissuade people from using condoms in the midst of the AIDS pandemic.
In this new film, Bradshaw and his team travel to Brazil, where the Church's claims have caused a row so bitter that the Rio carnival became a protest against the Vatican's claims. While the European Union condemns the Catholic Church for 'bigotry' in its approach to condoms, leading Catholic clergymen in Latin America and Africa say that condoms could actually be making the AIDS epidemic worse - and they say there's a better way of fighting the virus. The film explores HIV prevention in Uganda, where HIV rates have actually gone down, a rare occurrence in Africa. Many Catholics and policy-makers believe that it is abstinence and a return to fidelity and not condoms that are beating HIV there. Bradshaw's team also looks at the legal brothels of Nevada, where it's claimed prostitutes have a 100% success rate in using condoms against HIV.
Through showing both sides of this controversial debate, the film takes a serious look at condom use and AIDS. It asks whether the Vatican can continue its stance against condom use while they are so widely believed to be the best recourse available in stemming the spread of AIDS.
'The central question of the film is appropriate and yet chilling in this day and age. [Can Condoms Kill?] is a wonderful and helpful resource to use as a classroom tool to begin to discuss the touchy topics of sex out of marriage, the power imbalance between men and women globally, religiosity, improvised communities, understanding scientific research findings and how it can be misinterpreted, as well as the overarching question of the terrible pandemic of HIV and AIDS. With numerous challenges in stemming the tide of death due to a disease that is truly devastating and destroying not only individuals lives but whole communities and countries it seems timely and appropriate to raise the question as simple as possible. That is why the film Can Condoms Kills? is brilliant and timely.' Beatriz Solis, Chicano Studies Department, California State University at Northridge and Ethnic, Gender and Women's Studies Department, California Polytechnic University, Pomona
'Can Condoms Kill? is recommended without reservation simply because it will invoke an engaging conversation.' Educational Media Reviews Online
Citation
Main credits
Stark, Tony (film producer)
Robinson, Mike (editor of moving image work)
Mister, John (editor of moving image work)
Bradshaw, Steve (narrator)
Other credits
Editor, Mike Robinson; film editor, John Mister.
Distributor subjects
African Studies; Anthropology; Developing World; Ethics; Global Issues; HIV/AIDS; Health; Humanities; Religion; Reproductive Rights; Science, Technology, Society; SociologyKeywords
WEBVTT
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[sil.]
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[music]
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For two decades condoms have been a
major weapon in the fight against AIDS,
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about 40 million people are thought
to be living with AIDS virus.
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It\'s been called mankind\'s
biggest health disaster.
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But last year a leading cardinal in the Vatican insisted
on Panorama that condoms can have holes in them
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that leak the deadly virus. His claims
provoke controversy across the world.
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They are hurting and
bringing into great danger
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the lives of millions.
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Now the Vatican has produced evidence for its claims,
and it says condoms may even be fuelling the pandemic.
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Using a condom to stop AIDS
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is like trying to put
out a fire with petrol.
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Tonight Panorama investigates
the scientific evidence,
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can condoms really help the
world defeat the AIDS virus,
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or could they be making
the AIDS pandemic worse?
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It sounds like carnival,
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and it looks like carnival,
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but this year the danger of sex.
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Dancers dressing as the HIV
virus that causes AIDS,
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and as the device millions
trust for protection condoms,
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inflated to nightmarish proportions.
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In the street they\'re giving them away.
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This year\'s carnival an opportunity to
protest the teaching of the Catholic Church.
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And what\'s made the row over condoms in this
year\'s Brazilian carnival so acrimonious?
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The words of a leading cardinal
on Panorama broadcast worldwide.
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Is it the position of the
Vatican that the virus,
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the HIV virus, can pass through the condom?
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Yes, yes, because this is something
which the scientific community accept.
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Doctors know what we are saying.
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You cannot talk about safe sex.
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Condoms not working because
they have holes in them?
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The Vatican\'s claim caused an outcry,
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especially in the country with
Latin America\'s highest AIDS rate.
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It\'s not easy to persuade
people to use condoms,
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but when Cardinal Trujillo
goes on Panorama on BBC
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and says there is no point using condoms
because they have holes and fail,
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it\'s very serious.
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In this time of AIDS it\'s
essential to use condoms.
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AIDS activists know the Cardinal as one of
the Church\'s most powerful conservatives.
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They launched a counter attack
which made headline news.
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The story,
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the activists have produced
a campaigning TV advert.
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It was designed to shock.
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The ad accused the Church of an
historic error in opposing condoms.
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We wanted to alert people about
Church saying wrong things
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and being responsible for the death
of millions and millions of people.
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[music]
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Their charge committing a
crime against humanity.
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[non-English narration]
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Why do they accuse us of a
crime against humanity?
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Do they think the Church is spreading
AIDS, or that the condom is in some way
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a solution to the problem of AIDS.
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I would say that using a condom to stop AIDS
is like trying to put out a fire with petrol,
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because it encourages the fire.
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So I believe something
more profound is needed.
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[music]
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But many Brazilians believe
the Bishop is wrong
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to say condoms won\'t help, and
they\'re making their voices heard.
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[music]
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Rio Grande, Rio\'s leading samba
school celebrating condoms.
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It\'s their theme for this year\'s carnival.
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\"Satisfy your crazy desire\" they sing,
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\"But wear a condom my love
and protect yourself.\"
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[music]
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And it\'s not only AIDS
activists and samba schools.
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In this largely Catholic country the government
itself is also taking the Church on.
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Over Ipanema Beach it\'s answer
to Cardinal Trujillo\'s claims
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about holes in condoms
is written in the sky.
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Is that one of your planes?
Yeah. What does it say?
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Nothing gets through condoms.
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Use it and trust it. Does the Brazilian
AIDS Commission believe that
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the virus can pass through condoms
because they\'ve got holes in them?
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No, the AIDS Brazilian
Commission don\'t believe that.
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We have scientific works that show that
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it\'s impossible for HIV
virus pass through condoms.
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[sil.]
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The Government on the attack handing
out free condoms to help control AIDS.
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It also publicly questioned whether the Church
might be committing a crime against humanity.
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We are trying to shock now, we
are trying to provoke uh… debate
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because we are trying to say please,
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condoms are the unique
weapon we have against AIDS.
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Please, don\'t discredit… don\'t
discredit them amongst people.
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You were raising the question of whether discrediting
condoms could be a crime against humanity.
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Yes.
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This year\'s girl from Ipanema
wears a condom round her neck…
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…and so does the playboy.
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\"Wear a condom my love\" they want the
message to reach across the world.
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But on the other side of town a
very different kind of carnival.
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The Catholic Church insists condoms
are the wrong way to tackle AIDS.
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[non-English narration]
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There\'s no explicit mention of condoms in the scriptures,
but the Church says they offend the natural law
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which everyone, not just
Catholics, should obey.
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The Church is against condom use.
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Sexual relations between a man and a woman
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have to be natural.
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I\'ve never seen a little dog using a condom
during sexual intercourse with another dog.
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Animals have natural sex.
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Man likes the pleasure
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but not the consequences.
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It\'s a time hallowed argument.
What\'s causing the row,
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the Church is calling science to its help.
Bishop Cifuentes has released 100,000 copies
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of a pamphlet backing
Cardinal Trujillo\'s claims.
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So Cardinal Trujillo was right,
AIDS can pass through the condom?
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Yes. Yes, in a percentage.
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Not absolutely, but in a percentage.
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It varies 5%,
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10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, up to 30%.
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And so what you can\'t say is safe sex,
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and the people are being deceived.
The Church is like a mother.
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What mother would allow her son to go
on a plane if she knew there was a
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15% chance it would crash?
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[music]
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So what\'s the truth? Are there holes in condoms
and, if so, do they present a health risk?
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After our last program
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the Vatican published an important
document in which Cardinal Trujillo
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defends his controversial
claims about condoms.
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It\'s a detailed and passionately argued
defense that the Church\'s position on condoms
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called \"Family values versus safe sex\"
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and it goes as far as to suggest, \"condoms
may even be one of the main reasons
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for the spread of HIV AIDS.\"
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The document claims, \"So-called safe
sex using condoms is Russian roulette,
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and leading people to think
they are fully protected is
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to lead many to their death.\"
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It\'s shocking and serious stuff, and if it\'s true
we\'re gonna have to rethink our whole approach
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to preventing AIDS.
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Our first stop, New Mexico.
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We\'ve come to discover if Cardinal
Trujillo\'s scientific claims
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stand up to scrutiny.
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[music]
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The Cardinal, for example,
reports a claim that,
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\"Condoms have a 10%-15% inefficacy
or failure rate because
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minute AIDS viruses are much more able
to pass through condoms than the sperm.\"
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And he says, \"there could be
millions of leaking condoms.\"
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[non-English narration]
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The AIDS virus is roughly
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450 times smaller than the sperm.
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And so, scientists realize that
there is a degree of uncertainty.
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It might be 15%,
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18% or 20%.
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So what if there could be up to
a 20% chance of condoms failing
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because of holes? What makes it so
crucial to know the Vatican\'s claims
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are being repeated across the
world as Panorama has discovered.
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We were told that AIDS can be transmitted
through the doctor\'s surgical glove
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which is less porous than a condom.
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Because the condom they are made of rubber, so even the
AIDS virus can pass through the pores of the condom.
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We shall be proved the only people who have
been right in this matter in the long run.
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Cardinal Trujillo believes
he\'s already amassed evidence
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that proves his fears are well founded.
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This 20 page document has 87 footnotes which
include references to lots of scientific papers
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which he says back up his claims. We\'re
in New Mexico to meet Dave Lytle
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whose work on whether condoms leak is
widely considered the best and the latest.
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Cardinal Trujillo quotes one of
his papers to make his case.
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Dr Lytle wishes he hadn\'t. What do you make
of how Cardinal Trujillo used your work?
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I think that it\'s misleading. He didn\'t pay
attention to the paper, he took a number out of it
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and basically misused it.
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Lytle was a US Government scientist when condoms were
first being promoted as a way of preventing AIDS.
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The story that\'s not been told is that the US Government
once shared the same fears as Cardinal Trujillo does.
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Well, one day our Centre Director came
in to the office of a colleague of mine,
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I was there, and he asked the
question, \"Can condoms stop viruses?\"
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And we didn\'t know.
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It was clear that we needed to do some quick
experiments to find out what… where truth lie.
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Lytle\'s most conclusive work was
conducted with actual viruses
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but not HIV, that was too dangerous.
His team tested 470 condoms
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and found 12 of them allowed
\"some virus penetration\".
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In his document Cardinal Trujillo
uses this to endorse his case that
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HIV can pass through condoms. But
Lytle points to important differences
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between his laboratory test and real life.
The viruses he used
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were a fifth of the size of HIV.
Lytle used water,
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not less fluid semen. The pressures were
higher, and he tested whole condom service,
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any hole might have been in a
different place to the semen.
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He concluded that only 1 condom out of all those he
tested might conceivably leak any infectious HIV.
00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:19.999
Give me an idea of the worst one, how
much liquid actually leaked from it?
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If we translate that into
real life circumstances,
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the amount that went through
the condom would be
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just barely visible if it were on a
white surface, just barely visible.
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Barely visible dot. Yes, yes, just a dot.
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So how could anything pass through a
condom? Lytle says his worst case condom
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was a so-called water leaker. These
are condoms with tiny flaws,
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:54.999
allowed to pass through manufacturers
tests at the rate of one in four hundred,
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though manufacturers we spoke to said they
do much better. But in Lytle\'s judgment,
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even taking water leakers into account
there is no risk to worry about.
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Latex condom is a very effective barrier.
00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:14.999
A few uh… may allow minimal exposure to
virus, and if I were to give my children
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or grandchildren advice about whether
to use condoms, I would say absolutely.
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But is Dr Lytle right to be so relaxed?
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He concluded that ordinary
intact condoms are essentially
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impermeable to HIV.
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But what is the chance of being infected by
a condom like the water leaker Lytle found?
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:49.999
Now just because you\'re exposed to semen that
carries the virus, doesn\'t necessarily mean
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.999
you\'re gonna get infected. It\'s a question of
risk, and there\'s a whole variety of things
00:17:55.000 --> 00:17:59.999
that affect what that risk is.
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For months we\'ve been corresponding with HIV specialists. The
main factors, they say, that influence whether you get HIV
00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.999
include viral dose, how many
viruses you\'re exposed to,
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:14.999
the infectivity of each virus, genital
lesions, or particular risky sexual practices
00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:19.999
which could make you more
susceptible to the virus.
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.999
So what\'s the risk of coming across a
condom like the water leaker Lytle found,
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the condom leaking HIV and the virus infecting
you, assuming your partner is HIV positive.
00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:34.999
We asked a world expert on HIV infectivity.
00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:39.999
We\'re talking about such
miniscule risk that
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in general in our regular
life is a zero risk.
00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:49.999
See, it\'s an addition of
several unlikely events,
00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:54.999
the unlikely event that the condom will have
a tiny hole, the very unlikely event that
00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:59.999
a virus will pass through that hole,
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:04.999
and then even after that it\'s very
unlikely that a virus that has passed,
00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:09.999
actually causes transmission. This is
very unlikely. It happens as rarely
00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:14.999
as my plane crashes when
I\'m on umm… my vacation…
00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:19.999
going on vacation.
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:24.999
Umm… Of course we take into
account that a plane could crash,
00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:29.999
but we still go on vacation.
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:34.999
Of course the Cardinal might say look, that\'s just the view of two or three
individual scientists. Where\'s the evidence the scientific establishment agrees?
00:19:35.000 --> 00:19:39.999
The World Health Organization
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.999
describes any risk from intact condoms or water
leakers as negligible, and it\'s not alone.
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:49.999
Penny Hitchcock lives in New Mexico. Four years ago she
chaired a conference of America\'s top scientists on condoms.
00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:54.999
Their report the most
authoritative to date.
00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:59.999
In the report we looked at data from the
laboratory and from clinical studies.
00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.999
The data are consistent, there are no holes
in condoms that present a risk of infection.
00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:09.999
No risk of infection at all.
Not that is significant.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:14.999
Umm… Theoretically of course,
but not in actually practice.
00:20:15.000 --> 00:20:19.999
No one should not use a condom because they think it\'s gonna leak.
I don\'t care whether they\'re in the United States or in Africa.
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:24.999
They should be using condoms with confidence,
that if they use them correctly,
00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:29.999
they\'ll prevent HIV infection,
for the church to not support
00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:34.999
the use of condoms to prevent
infections is very detrimental
00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:39.999
to our controlling the epidemic.
00:20:40.000 --> 00:20:44.999
But that\'s not the end of the story
00:20:45.000 --> 00:20:49.999
because as public health experts
recognize, condoms can fail.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:54.999
We\'re still in the American South
West on our way to a place
00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:59.999
where they understand these issues, the place quoted
in the scientific literature about condoms and HIV.
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:04.999
Our rationale, this is a
real life laboratory.
00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:09.999
Brothels like Sheri\'s Ranch
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:14.999
are legal in some counties in Nevada.
The law says condoms must be used.
00:21:15.000 --> 00:21:19.999
Whether it\'s for vaginal,
oral or manual sex,
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:24.999
at Sheri\'s they use over 15,000 a year.
00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:29.999
But there is a risk for girls like Kayla,
it\'s the risk condoms may slip off,
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:34.999
or tear, because they\'re not properly used.
Jewellery or rough sex
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:39.999
for example can cause problems. Still, that\'s not
something that concerns the sex workers here.
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:44.999
It\'s safe because we use condoms here. I\'ve
been in the business a few years on and off
00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:49.999
and I\'ve used a lot,
thousands, it just… it varies.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:54.999
There could be a week I use hundreds.
And do you know your HIV status?
00:21:55.000 --> 00:21:59.999
Do I know it? I don\'t have HIV.
00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.999
We are in the old brothel right now. The Madame has
to make sure the girls have regular health checks.
00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:09.999
That too is the law. The girls are
tested for HIV when they start work
00:22:10.000 --> 00:22:14.999
and after more than five days off.
00:22:15.000 --> 00:22:19.999
How many age HIV positive cases have you had, if any? We\'ve
never had any. They\'ve done over 66,000 tests on ladies
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:24.999
that work in our brothel. There\'s never
been one reported or documented case ever.
00:22:25.000 --> 00:22:29.999
And it\'s not just Sheri\'s.
16 years ago Nevada started
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:34.999
mandatory HIV tests for
all legal sex workers.
00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:39.999
There is no long-term follow up but according to state
records, no prostitute working in a legal Nevada brothel
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:44.999
has ever tested positive for HIV.
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:49.999
So from your point of view, condoms are
100% protection. Absolutely. Against HIV?
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:54.999
Yes. So for professionals like
Kayla, condoms do work against HIV,
00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:59.999
but then they are professionals.
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:04.999
The danger for everyone else is that the
basic techniques of condom use are forgotten
00:23:05.000 --> 00:23:09.999
in the heat of the moment,
or have never been learnt.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.999
Cardinal Trujillo says in his document, \"The
risks of slips and tears for ordinary people
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:19.999
is relatively high when dealing with a
potentially mortal disease such as AIDS.\"
00:23:20.000 --> 00:23:24.999
And he says that, \"Like cigarettes,
perhaps condoms should also be required
00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:29.999
to carry warning labels stating
that they are not safe.\"
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:34.999
Here in Nevada the precautions they take
against slips and tears are rigorous.
00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:39.999
Have you ever had one slip off?
No, I keep a good grip on it.
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:44.999
You do what? You keep a good grip on it. You
should actually, at all times, you know…
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:49.999
during intercourse, keep your hand at the base of the penis
holding the condom down and in that way can prevent that
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:54.999
and it\'s just, as I said, proper use.
00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:59.999
Ever had a tear? No. Not one. Not one.
00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:04.999
I don\'t let the gentlemen touch them. I put them on because I know
the correct way. And when you put them on you hold the tip of it
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:09.999
and roll it down to make sure there\'s no air
in it. We also do a doctor check, a DC,
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:14.999
on the gentlemen.
00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:19.999
We\'ll grab a wipey, put on a glove, two
gloves, wipe \'em down, check their hair area,
00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:24.999
make sure there\'s no… anything crawling around,
and… you know.. any sores, open wounds.
00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:29.999
You go through an extraordinary performance really…
I mean which would frankly put most people off,
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:34.999
in order to make sure sex is safe.
00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:39.999
We are extra careful. I mean let\'s face
it, you know… a woman here, you know,
00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.999
if she\'s very busy and successful in her
business, could have sex with many, many, many
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:49.999
different strangers in a day, in a
week, in a month in her lifetime.
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:54.999
If we can safely depend on it to protect us, I should
think, you know, someone in the general public
00:24:55.000 --> 00:24:59.999
would feel extraordinarily safe
using the same type of protection.
00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:04.999
But can and do ordinary people really achieve
these levels of protection against HIV/AIDS?
00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:09.999
Next stop,
00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:14.999
Milwaukee, home to Steve Pinkerton, for whom the
Nevada brothel\'s success is one among many reasons
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:19.999
for supporting the use
of condoms against AIDS.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.999
We don\'t all have to be experts like the brothel workers in
Nevada but there\'s no reason why people can\'t be educated
00:25:25.000 --> 00:25:29.999
and improve their condom use behaviors the
same way that they learn to do other things.
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:34.999
This isn\'t rocket science.
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:39.999
The best science we have to show how well
condoms protect against HIV in practice
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:44.999
comes from research into people whose
regular partner is infected with the virus.
00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:49.999
Pinkerton and other scientists have
analyzed studies of such people
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:54.999
who say they are consistent condom
users with their HIV positive partner.
00:25:55.000 --> 00:25:59.999
They show that at the end of a
year of vaginal sexual intercourse
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:04.999
about 99% remain uninfected. Pinkerton says
they remaining risk can be blamed on slips,
00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:09.999
tears or people saying they
use condoms when they don\'t.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:14.999
Cardinal Trujillo says these studies show the
condom does not seem to be the real answer.
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.999
Would you therefore agree, having
looked at all these studies,
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:24.999
that condoms really are not the answer?
No, I wouldn\'t say that\'s true at all.
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:29.999
Over the long-term condoms help reduce the size
of the epidemic year after year after year
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.999
and it\'s one of the best hopes we
have of controlling the epidemic
00:26:35.000 --> 00:26:39.999
in the absence of a vaccine or a cure.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:44.999
So, where are we on the science?
00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:49.999
Well the evidence is clear. Cardinal
Trujillo and others are wrong
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:54.999
to say holes in condoms pose a
significant risk of HIV infection.
00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:59.999
But while condoms can slip or tear,
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:04.999
the world\'s top AIDS experts
say they have a vital place
00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:09.999
in the war against AIDS.
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:14.999
Cardinal Trujillo declined our request for a further
interview. But there\'s one other controversial point
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:19.999
he makes that\'s still worth investigating. Condoms,
he says, far from preventing the AIDS epidemic,
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:24.999
have actually made it worse.
00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.999
He says that safe sex campaigns which promote
condoms have increased sexual promiscuity
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:34.999
and may have increased the
number of AIDS cases too.
00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:39.999
As supporting evidence, Cardinal Trujillo points to
a paper by San Francisco\'s Professor Norman Hearst
00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.999
who\'s studied AIDS across the world.
00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:49.999
So did you say that safe sex
leads to increased promiscuity?
00:27:50.000 --> 00:27:54.999
No, we did not say that. Is there
any evidence that safe sex
00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:59.999
and condom promotion does lead
to increased promiscuity?
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:04.999
I don\'t think there is any conclusive evidence
for that. In fact there\'s no academic consensus
00:28:05.000 --> 00:28:09.999
whether condoms do or don\'t
lead people to have more sex.
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:14.999
But the Professor believes Cardinal Trujillo is right
to question whether condoms are working against AIDS.
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:19.999
In some parts of the world, he says, they are not
fulfilling the hopes so many have placed in them.
00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:24.999
You can look at any number of countries
in sub-Saharan Africa and see that
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:29.999
while the number of condoms
distributed has gone up, up, up,
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:34.999
unfortunately the rates of HIV
infection have gone up, up, up
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:39.999
at the same time. We have to,
at some point, start saying,
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.999
wait a minute, this approach
doesn\'t seem to be working.
00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:49.999
Maybe it\'s time to try something else. But where
Professor Hearst and Cardinal Trujillo agree,
00:28:50.000 --> 00:28:54.999
that \'something else\' involves
changing people\'s sexual behavior.
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:59.999
[non-English narration]
00:29:00.000 --> 00:29:04.999
The spread of AIDS
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:09.999
can be combated and we\'ve seen
positive experiences in some places.
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:14.999
Through family values,
the value of fidelity
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:19.999
and young people having a
mature attitude towards sex.
00:29:20.000 --> 00:29:24.999
[non-English narration]
00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:29.999
In this African country they\'re
already promoting family values
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:34.999
as a weapon against AIDS.
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:39.999
Cardinal Trujillo says it shows such
values work and you don\'t need condoms.
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:44.999
Young people urged by the Church
00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:49.999
to delay sex until marriage.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:54.999
Formal pledges of abstinence
from worshippers like Gift.
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:59.999
Because my religion teaches
that people should remain pure
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.999
and they should abstain until
they are married, I thought
00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:09.999
if I took that pledge I would be
more motivated to remain pure.
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:14.999
Abstinence is a sure way
00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:19.999
of avoiding HIV. Better than a condom?
00:30:20.000 --> 00:30:24.999
A condom is… to some extent it\'s helpful, but
of course abstinence is the best solution.
00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:29.999
The Catholic Church is not
alone in saying it\'s working.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:34.999
The HIV infection rate in
Uganda has actually fallen
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:39.999
and there\'s evidence that Church and Government
campaigns to cut back casual sex have helped,
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:44.999
though the abstinence message here
is a particularly demanding one.
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:49.999
You know very well that when you\'re
in the company of a certain person
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:54.999
you are going to be aroused,
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:59.999
you\'re going to be tempted,
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:04.999
don\'t go there. You know
that by holding hands,
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:09.999
some electricity is going to be flowing.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:14.999
Don\'t even go there.
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.999
You have to give up your
girlfriend or boyfriend.
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:24.999
There is no other way. Your message in there
today was pretty tough. Do you believe
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:29.999
that you will have helped to save people\'s lives
by doing that? Very much so. Very much so.
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:34.999
You were asking them to stop holding hands.
Exactly. Don\'t hold hands?
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:39.999
Yeah, I was saying that. Isn\'t this
going a bit far? It may do but umm…
00:31:40.000 --> 00:31:44.999
Do you need to stop holding hands in
order to be sure you won\'t get HIV AIDS?
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:49.999
Yes, it may be the case.
It may be the case.
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:54.999
The Church is not preaching the message don\'t use a condom, don\'t use a
condom, don\'t use a condom. The Church is saying there\'s something better
00:31:55.000 --> 00:31:59.999
and that you don\'t want to put your life… want
to hand over your life to a piece of latex.
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:04.999
Lord Jesus Christ.
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:09.999
I surrender my boyfriend,
00:32:10.000 --> 00:32:14.999
I surrender my girlfriend, I surrender
that person to you right now.
00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:19.999
Thank you Jesus. Praise you Jesus.
Thank you Jesus.
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:24.999
Praise you Jesus. Thank you father, thank you Lord for
what you have done, praise and magnify your holy name.
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:29.999
So, could the Church be right?
00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:34.999
Could the war on AIDS
be won without condoms?
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:39.999
Ladies and gentlemen Life Guard is here
this evening to bring you another program
00:32:40.000 --> 00:32:44.999
on the proper use of condoms. AIDS
activists think condoms are essential.
00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:49.999
They\'re handing them out free. At the last count
there were only nine a year for every Ugandan male.
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:54.999
But critics say they don\'t
always work so well in Africa.
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:59.999
For example, they may be poorly stored, the wrong
size, or don\'t suit some sexual practices.
00:33:00.000 --> 00:33:04.999
Because of such problems some academics do
share at least some of the Church\'s concern
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:09.999
about condoms in Africa.
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:14.999
In Africa there\'s a much higher prevalence of HIV
so you\'re probability of being exposed to someone
00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:19.999
who is infected is much greater.
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:24.999
So if there is a risk of a failure of a condom, for whatever
reason, it amplifies that possibility of being infected.
00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:29.999
In the past,
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.999
the only took that was being
advocated was condoms,
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:39.999
and now we see from the lessons of Uganda
that we need to do more to promote
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:44.999
reduction in sexual partners and better
understand how to bring that about.
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:50.000
But there are those who say such views fail to
take into account the realities of life in Africa.
00:33:55.000 --> 00:34:00.000
Lillian Likicho is showing a class of
young slum-dwellers how to use a condom.
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:14.999
She was once convinced abstinence works and couldn\'t
bring herself to mention the word \'condom\'.
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.999
I was brought up in a Catholic home
so both my parents were Catholic,
00:34:20.000 --> 00:34:24.999
not only Catholics but staunch Catholics.
00:34:25.000 --> 00:34:29.999
What did you think about condoms?
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:34.999
I didn\'t like them. I thought
every young person could abstain.
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:39.999
I thought people would be faithful to each
other. I didn\'t see the need of condoms anyway.
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:44.999
Lillian began to change her mind after realizing
the difficulties facing many poor women
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.999
in a country where sexual relations
are often dominated by men.
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:54.999
But even though some Catholic priests
do endorse condoms privately,
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:59.999
she feared she was denying her faith.
I thought I was sinning because
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.999
I wanted to be loyal to my Church.
I no longer see it as a sin.
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:09.999
Not everyone has sex because they want to.
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:14.999
Some young people will go and have
sex because of circumstances.
00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:19.999
Maybe some of them of course could be rape. Some of
them could be that they do not have life skills.
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:24.999
Some of them and most of them
is because of economic reasons.
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:29.999
I\'m not saying condoms are
the only way to fight HIV,
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.999
but let\'s give people all the options
and let them make a decision out of it.
00:35:35.000 --> 00:35:39.999
So, does Uganda need condoms?
Well Sam Okware should know.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:44.999
He\'s the Government scientist who\'s helped
develop Uganda\'s policy of A, B and C,
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.999
Abstinence, Be faithfully and Condoms.
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:54.999
If you have failed to abstain as the Bible
says, if you have failed to be faithful
00:35:55.000 --> 00:35:59.999
as our culture says, then you have
only one option left that is condom.
00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:04.999
Isn\'t the distinguishing
factor about Uganda\'s success
00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:09.999
behavior change and abstinence?
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:14.999
No, I think it\'s a combination of everything.
Uh… It\'s like saying when you have a car,
00:36:15.000 --> 00:36:19.999
which are more important the front
wheels or the behind wheels,
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:24.999
or the engine? All the three
are quite equally important.
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:29.999
The A, that\'s abstinence, the behavior
change as well as the condom.
00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.999
Without the condom I think I will still be having
problems with this very sexually active age group,
00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:39.999
with a very high sexual drive. Those who
continue to propagate the epidemic.
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:44.999
Can\'t you persuade them to be abstinent? No, you
can\'t. Sex is a… sex is a complicated matter.
00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:49.999
All we can do at this moment
is to make sex safer.
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:54.999
So why is the Catholic Church so opposed to
condoms when all the big AIDS control agencies
00:36:55.000 --> 00:36:59.999
say they are crucial to
the fight against HIV?
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:04.999
Cardinal Wamala is Uganda\'s senior Catholic
00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:09.999
and one of the men who\'ll elect the next
Pope. When the present Pope\'s reign began,
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:14.999
the AIDS pandemic hadn\'t broken out. When
it did, the Pope continued to promote
00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.999
the Church\'s anti-condom\'s teaching.
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:24.999
Cardinal Wamala has the responsibility
of advocating it in Uganda.
00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:29.999
We must bring about the moral revolution
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:34.999
in this country
00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:39.999
through behavior change,
abstinence, fidelity,
00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:44.999
not condoms.
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:49.999
If somebody is going to have
casual sex, can\'t stop themselves,
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:54.999
do you believe it would be better then to use a condom,
rather than take the risk of being exposed to HIV AIDS?
00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:59.999
Well, what does one mean by can\'t?
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:04.999
You mean that this person
00:38:05.000 --> 00:38:09.999
is sick, or what is it?
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:14.999
Is he not normal or…
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:19.999
what do you mean by can\'t. You don\'t encourage the
weak people to become always… or to remain weak.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:24.999
Just challenge them in order
to overcome their weakness.
00:38:25.000 --> 00:38:29.999
So when people say the Church is
making a terrible mistake here,
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:34.999
it could be a crime against humanity,
how do you react to that accusation?
00:38:35.000 --> 00:38:39.999
Well, they may be right.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:44.999
They may be right
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:49.999
because I mean these people who
are saying it, they\'re not fools.
00:38:50.000 --> 00:38:54.999
They may be right. But
they could also be wrong.
00:38:55.000 --> 00:38:59.999
But you would accept that the Church
might be making an historical error?
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:04.999
I mean the Church has made errors
00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:09.999
in the past, historical as you say.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:14.999
Indeed there is no guarantee that the Church
will not make more historical errors.
00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:19.999
So it is possible. Does it trouble
you that this might be the case?
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:24.999
No, it doesn\'t,
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:29.999
because it has to do
with our moral beliefs.
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:34.999
That\'s our understanding of the
moral behavior of a Christian.
00:39:35.000 --> 00:39:39.999
And you feel
00:39:40.000 --> 00:39:44.999
the message from the
Holy Spirit is abstain,
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:50.000
be faithful, but don\'t use a condom. Yes.
00:39:55.000 --> 00:39:59.999
But the Church is not united
in its teaching on condoms.
00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:04.999
Some Catholics, including a Cardinal who\'s been
spoken of as the next Pope, argue they can be used
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:09.999
if the purpose is to save lives
rather than to control conception.
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:14.999
If someone is HIV positive and his partner says,
\"I want to have sexual relations with you\"
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:19.999
basically he should not do so. But if
he does, then he must use a condom,
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:24.999
otherwise he risks breaking the fifth
Commandment. After all, the condom is preventive,
00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:29.999
it protects other people from
catching disease and from death.
00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:34.999
There is no other moral or sane way in which to judge this.
The condom cannot just be seen as a birth control measure.
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.999
And in Brussels there is
another powerful voice
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:44.999
lined up against Vatican teaching
on condoms, the European Union
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:49.999
which helps fund the fight against AIDS
in Africa, including the use of condoms.
00:40:50.000 --> 00:40:54.999
Nothing diplomatic about its
forthright condemnation.
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:59.999
The harshness, the aggressivity
and the insensitivity,
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.999
the lack of love for human beings
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:09.999
and the unwillingness to take
their situation seriously,
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:14.999
I find that extreme.
00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:19.999
They are hurting and
bringing into great danger
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:24.999
the lives of millions out there, and this
is where bigotry gets into big discussion.
00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:29.999
How do you mean? The denial of the fact
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:34.999
that very many people in this
world do have a sex life,
00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:39.999
and they have to face a terrible choice
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.999
of abstinence or lose
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:49.999
the blessing of the church.
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:54.999
In the villages of Uganda you can
see just what that choice can mean
00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:00.000
for some devout Catholics in practice.
00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:09.999
Harriet Nakabugo decided not to use
condoms with her husband Isaac
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.999
who she knew had AIDS.
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:19.999
Now she fears she has AIDS too.
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:24.999
It\'s been suggested that women like
Harriet could be regarded as martyrs.
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:29.999
Condoms have always been unholy.
00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:34.999
As Catholics, we are not
allowed to use them.
00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:39.999
We won\'t go to heaven if we use condoms.
00:42:40.000 --> 00:42:44.999
They were designed for prostitutes.
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:50.000
I would miss all of God\'s blessings and
my reward would definitely be hell.
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:09.999
Is it fair to persuade somebody
that they face a choice
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:14.999
between losing the chance of going
to heaven and using a condom?
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:19.999
Well if it is wrong to use the condom,
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:24.999
then her choice is the right one. You believe
she would have made the right choice.
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:29.999
If she really believes that that is wrong,
then she has made the right choice.
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.999
Even if it costs her life? Yes.
Maybe that is why you get martyrs.
00:43:35.000 --> 00:43:39.999
So to give up your life for a principle
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:44.999
could be the right thing to do.
If it\'s the right principle.
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:49.999
And not wanting to use a condom could
be that right principle? Could be, yes.
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:54.999
You\'re really saying that it could be
better to die than to use a condom
00:43:55.000 --> 00:43:59.999
if that\'s your belief? If that\'s
one\'s belief, yes, it\'s better.
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:04.999
That\'s a harsh doctrine, isn\'t it?
Well, Christ\'s teaching has
00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:09.999
never been easy, has it?
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.999
The overwhelming view among those
who lead the fight against AIDS
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:19.999
is it\'s not condoms that kill,
it\'s the failure to use them.
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:24.999
The dilemma for the Vatican is
whether to go on opposing condoms
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:29.999
when so many of those fighting the pandemic
believe that condoms can save lives.
00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:35.000
[sil.]
